The Leaders by Ivey
The Leaders by Ivey

Episode · 2 years ago

Re-writing the code of education

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Don’t underestimate the will of an entrepreneur starting a brand new venture during a recession. Forced to be creative, and inspired to hustle, Heather Payne, HBA ’09, found a market need aimed at women learning to code. Payne shares her quest to disrupt the skills development industry and build the educational institution of the future as her team continues to grow the Juno College of Technology. Our conversation explores topics such as being personally vulnerable as a leader, brand evolution and the importance of sleep.

Insights in wisdom lie within every business decision. Welcome to the leaders by Ivy podcast, where we discover hidden narratives and unlock key learnings for our own leadership and career journeys. Hey everyone, I'm Matt Quinn. We're happy to drop this episode during Global Entrepreneurship Week. Today we welcome heather pain, HBA nine and the CEO of Juno College of Technology, formerly hacker. You. In this discussion we cover hustle, evolution and the importance of sleep. Enjoy. Thanks very much for joining us today and spending some time getting a letting US getting to know you, your organization and your path to leadership and how you guy here. So thanks for taking the time. Yeah, thanks for having me. Let's start off with a little bit about yourself and what's your relation been with Ivy. How did you how do you continue to be involved? Sure, yeah, so, while my name is heather pain and I'm the founder and CEO of the Juno College of Technology, business that I started back in two thousand and twelve, just a couple of years after I graduated. I be actually I was an HBA two thousand and nine, so graduated actually into the last recession and spend some time afterwards as part of the Ivy Alumni Association in Toronto Doing Social Media for that group and and I also was, I think, the first group of winners of the Ivy Emerging Leaders Award a few years ago. Could you talk a bit more about Juno and it's evolution since you found it? Yeah, totally so. Do you know? College of Technology is the business that I started in two thousand and twelve and we are a private career college helping people switch from unrelated careers into the tech industry. So we train about maybe fifteen hundred or two thousand people a year, a number of whom come to us for a vocational program so they might come to us was sort of beginner level coding skills and we will help them over ...

...nine weeks transition into becoming, you know, ready for a web development job. When I started the business in two thousand and twelve, we were called hacker you. So it was a different name back then and over the years that name started to feel less and less like the right name for the company. I think it was because, you know, my vision really grew a lot. I would say around two thousand and eighteen I really started to have a big vision for what this company could become, and it transcends coding. It's not just about coding, it's about, you know, emerging careers in every field, and so the word hacker, in addition to being a little bit like, you know, sketchy or whatever, just started feeling a bit limiting. And then also the why Oh you, part of the name, you know, was funny when we first launched because we were sort of we're a university, but we're not, and that was sort of the joke. And then in two thousand and sixteen we actually became registered as a college. So now we're, you know, working to innovate education from the inside and it felt a little childish to have this like whyou reference in Our Name. So we changed the name officially last year to Juno College of Technology, and I think it positions that's really well, you know it to me. I wanted something for the new name that could sit beside, you know, ivy or Harvard or Stanford, but feel fresh, and that's, you know, what I think it really represents. And you know, what we're ultimately trying to do is we're working on creating the University of the future. So I'll be working on this for many, many decades to come. This is my life's work. It will take a long, long time, but you can expect to see a lot of really cool innovations coming out of Juno over the coming years, for sure. What made you first start to want to start your own company, Start Your Own Organization? What was the the fire that got started for you there? Yeah, when I so during Ivy, I definitely felt like a little bit of a black sheep. I wasn't interested in becoming a management consultant, I wasn't interested in becoming a banker, becoming an accountant didn't really appeal to me. So I just sort of thought, I guess marketing, you know, I guess that's where I'll go. And when I went to Ivy, my third year internship was at craft foods and sales...

...actually, and my plan was to, when I graduated, join a fortune five hundred company and work my way to the top. So entrepreneurship was not something that was, you know, something that I was thinking about or something that I felt I was meant to do. It really wasn't on my radar at all. And then, you know, graduating into the recession caused a lot of challenges for a lot of people back then and you know, I understand where students today are feeling because I've been there and let me just say I hopefu they'll get to talk about this later. But, like, there's a lot of good that can come out of graduating into a recession and you know, I think my my business, is proof of that. But right after ivy actually decided to remain in Asia. I got on exchange for my last semester of Ivy and loved it there and decided that, you know what, I'm just going to stay in Asia for a little while. So I stayed in Asia for about an extra year and, upon returning to Toronto, had to figure out how to get a job. Had A couple different random jobs and eventually, though, I had this sort of growing interest in coding. You know, I had been learning to code even when I was in Asia. I'd started learning how to code and I just thought to myself, you know, there should be a group in Toronto for women who want to learn how to code, bring people together, make it a little bit easier, and I pretty much just tweeted that idea out and it was instantly popular. This was. This would have been like May of two thousand and eleven or so. So a couple years after graduating, you know, after these sort of random jobs here and there, tweeted this out and it was like everyone loved this idea. I got like all these messages. People wanted to help. Someone sent me three thousand dollars to get the whole thing started. And you know, it wasn't like I had a big twitter following back then. I had four hundred followers. So it was all, you know, a little bit sort of too good to be true and a lot of ways, and I just was like, okay, I guess this is what I'm doing now. So my career at that point became about helping people learn how to Code, and I've grown that from, you know, first working on...

...a nonprofit which is now, you know, and nationally known. Charity actually called Canada Learning Code, funded by the federal government with about eighteen million dollars. Toby from shopify sits on the board of that charity. So that's my first baby and then I turned that idea into my business that I run today, which is Juno College. So it really sounds like your openness to you know, receiving new ideas, wherever they come from. Your willingness to try new things was a key and you mentioned you graduated during a recession and there's a lot of things that are similar. Now let's dig into that a little bit more for for students that are listening that are coming out of school. What else was was valuable for you coming out in a recession to find success? Let's let's talk about that. Yeah, I mean to answer your last question very directly. The reason I am an entrepreneur today is because I couldn't make a lot of money doing anything else. That was just the fact of it. So, you know, graduated from school, had a couple different random jobs, but the job I like the best probably was working in sales for a startup and I got paid thirty seven thousand dollars a year. That was like the sort of best I could do back then in the recession, and at a certain point I started thinking to myself, you know, I could probably figure out how to make thirty seven thousand dollars a year working for myself instead of working for somebody else, and so for me, entrepreneurship was really about salary replacement. I didn't have a big idea. I didn't have a vision. I wasn't like I'm going to go and give vent to capital. I was literally just like, you know what, I can probably do this myself and I'm going to have more fun, you know, doing something for me than doing something for somebody else. So I think that that's really the opportunity that, you know, is presented today. You know, obviously we wouldn't wish this pandemic on anyone, but you know, given that it has happened, you know, a lot of companies get started in recessions and get started when there's a downturn, because in good times I could have gotten a job for K or a K and then I would have a completely different...

...life, and I'm really grateful for the fact that my options from an employment perspective were a little bit limited, because it forced me to be more creative and it ended me, you know, resulted in me being in, you know, situation I am today, which I wouldn't trade for anything. So creativities and other thing that comes up finding the gold in in the midst of maybe some challenging times. What else do you see as opportunities right now, because you already said that there's there's some cool opportunities. There some cool things happening. From your perspective, what do you see? Yeah, there's a lot right now. I mean I'm obviously in the in the education field with with my business, and you know, what a time to be in education. As you know, students are deciding whether they want to go back to campus or not and is the the online learning option suitable for them? Is it going to achieve their help them achieve their goals or not? So I have been like in a really deep and intense period of creativity right now, for sure, thinking about the future of my business and what this could all mean for society. So that's really exciting. But I also think there's a lot of like micro opportunities available that could probably turn into into big things. You know, I think about all the parents who have kids at home and the the learning pod opportunities that exist. You know, if I was if I was a teacher, had an EC or something like that, I think I would be very interested in in maybe building a learning pod, you know, build a learning pod to stock start and then maybe figure out how to franchise a learning pod. I think that'd be really interesting. I think there's something really interesting in, you know, food service delivery. Is it optimal that, you know, we're always ordering through Uber eats and uper eats is taking such a big cut from these restaurants? Probably not, and so I think there might be something around like, you know, going door to door, and I love, like anything that goes door too or I'm like super into those kinds of ideas. I think like hustle, you know, if you're a young person and you're trying to figure it out, like just knock on people's doors and find out the things that they need. But you know,...

...if someone came to my door and they were like, Hey, I've got this activity kit that I made for kids, would you like to buy one for twenty bucks, I'd be like, Oh my God, give it to me, yeah, for sure. You know, that would be super convenient for me and very helpful. And maybe the same thing goes with other staples, other products, cleaning supplies, like just to reduce the amount of times that we have to all go to the stores. So I just yeah, I think there's so much right now and many of them wouldn't require any specific expertise. It just is about looking at what consumers problems are today and solving them in a small way, looking to replace your salary and then over time, hopefully that can turn into something bigger and Hustle you've got, you've mentioned a few times your interest in those that Hustle, and you obviously hustle a great deal. Who Do you take inspiration from right now that inspires you to continue the hustle and continue to find new ideas and challenging times? Yeah, I mean, if we're talking about hustle, like I definitely worked really hard in my in my tes I sort of, you know, realize that I'd made this choice to go and figure it out on my own and there wasn't really a safety net and so, you know, I was very focused on work. The first three years of building my business were very challenging, you know, you just you don't make a lot of money in the first few years and there's a lot to figure out. And I'm a solo founder, so I'm doing this on my own without any co founders to help me. As the business has matured and you know, I now have around thirty five full time employees. I have a leadership team. You know, there's different challenges that come with that, but but one thing that's been a really nice result of it all is that, like, I mean, I don't truly hustle like I like I used to. It's so it's it's nice. I mean I'm thirty three now, I have two young kids, and so what's great about starting a business when you're so young, I started when I was twenty four, is that, you know, by the time I got to being in my s, like this business is is eight and a half years old. Like this is a very established business. We've got a leadership team, we know what we're doing, we have, you know, decent...

...annual revenues, and so, you know, I hustle in a different way. It's like I need to make space for having ideas and for thinking, and that's like a different kind of hustle than I had to do in the past, but still very important. So you've convinced me, you've convinced the the students listening to to follow that idea or maybe explore what what a business might look at. If I have no idea how to start, where did you go? What did you do, or was it simply left foot in front of right foot and just keep moving ahead? Yeah, it's it is tricky. I remember being like hs team number, like what is that? Like? Is that important? It's it is really tricky to figure out exactly what the steps are, and what I found it to be really helpful to focus on is just, you know, what can I get someone to trade me money for, like that's just the ultimate question. And how can I facilitate collecting that money? A lot of things can be figured out after the fact. You know, these are good problems to have. If you're like, Whoa, I've got tenzero dollars and I didn't put it in a business bank account, like, I think we can pretty easily solve those problems by like hiring the right person with this, you know, tenzeros that you that you ended up with. But I think a lot of people in the very early days get a bit caught up in, you know, the strategy of it all and like the big picture of it all, when really what you're trying to do is see what consumer need exists that you can solve and if you can do that and get someone to trade you money. Now, in my case, we sold a javascript workshop for thirty bucks. That was the first thing I ever sold and we sold thirty tickets for that basically instantly, like the moment we put them on sale. You know, nine hundreds in our pocket and I was like okay, like well, what, can we do that again tomorrow? And then can we do that again the day after that, you know, and it took us some time to ramp up into it, but within about three or four or five months I had actually quit my job and was able to take sort of a half salary from the nonprofit,...

...which help me, and I just sort of freelance for the rest. But you know, you can start to see how that path can make sense and how you can get there once you have someone trading you something for money. So keep solving the problems, either your own problems or someone else's problems that they're willing to trade. You mentioned that you were a solo priner and one of the benefits of having somebody with you, as you know, guess, a shoulder to lean on. You've got somebody to know maybe share the challenges with. One of the challenges to being an entrepreneur is rejection. How did you deal with rejection when you were, you know, going this alone, and what suggestions do you have for the listener about how how to manage that, because it could be challenging. Yeah, I mean I've always had, you know, people close to me in the nonprofit. Actually I had three cofounders and that was super helpful in those, in those very early days, and and they were involved in getting the current business up and running a little bit as well. But, you know, really it was it was on me largely pretty early on and you know, I definitely know that they're people who have cofounders. Would say, you know, I would never do it without a cofounder. But from my view, I've loved my experience. It's very efficient. You know, when you have a cofounder, you're having to constantly convince someone else of your idea. And of course that can be good because they'll, you know, find holes in it and find problems and pick those out and of course there's a lot of benefits to that. But I don't know, I've just found that, you know, everyone knowing in the company that like, ultimately it's my call, there's nobody else's call. Who It is is very clarifying and I've just had to have had to learn how to adapt to, you know, that role of being solo and, you know, being on my own my husband's also an entrepreneur, so where there's a lot of like mutual understanding of what that means. He has a partner in his business. Though, the one thing that I'm finding challenging today, and I'm actually looking to, you know, sort of move away from feeling so much like a solo entrepreneur is, you know, often businesses that...

...are successful have two people at the helm. They'll have a visionary type of person who comes up with all the ideas, and then they'll have like an integrator type of person who, you know, integrates those ideas into the business, you know, maybe manages the leadership team, executes the business plan, make sure that the business is performing according to projections and that sort of thing. And in my business I do both of those roles and they're very different roles. Having to imagine the future and set the direction for the company while also making sure that you're hitting your monthly sales targets is is a lot. It's a big job and I am I've put it on our three year road map that I would like to separate those two roles and be only the visionary and have hire someone as the integrator or bring up one of my leadership team members as the integrator. So that's something I'm looking forward to. We're probably one to two years away from making that change and that will be like an exciting phase for me as I sort of enter into the ten year running this business, which will bring new challenges and it's almost like a new not only of you, for you at the business, but how others view you in the role. So to be lots of challenges that come up. Absolutely. Are there other significant challenges that you've faced in the last, let's say two quarters that that you've had to overcome, either personally as a leader or for you as a business, and how did you respond to that challenge? Well, I mean, if I go back a little bit before then, I would say end of last year was a really probably the most challenging time for me in my career so far, and I sort of attribute it to two things. One is that the company was at this inflection point between having less than twenty employees or so and then switching into having more than twenty employees, and this is a sort of documented hard time at companies, especially for us. You know, I've been running this business for so many years, like seven years at that point it was a time when it was no longer the right thing for the company to have basically every person in the company reporting to...

...me. So it's when I started to establish a leadership team and that meant that people that, you know, previously had reported to me now had someone in the middle who they've reported to, and we had to learn a lot about how to communicate, how to make sure that everybody hears the message when you can't all sit around a table easily anymore. And so that was a really challenging time because I think I wasn't exactly prepared for how challenge challenging it would be. And then the second thing that made it challenging for me was just that I had a lot of learning to do to be a good manager and leader and I somehow, because the company was previously smaller, had sort of gotten away without really honing those skills, and it kind of came to a head last fall when it was clear that, like, I really needed to put a lot of work into this and improve the way that I manage people and lead people. So last fall I, you know, hired an executive coach, I started going to therapy for the first time to understand some of my weaknesses and work on them. And it was a tough quarter because the company, I think, was, you know, culturally like not where I would ever want the team to be. Luckily, though, like the leadership team and I like put in all this work and, you know, we really listened and we hired some HR consultants to help us and when we came back earlier this year it was like a totally new company. Everything, you know, everything has been great and we do weekly engagement scores here and we've basically been hovering between, you know, eighty eight and ninety two percent since the beginning of the year. So it was like a very tough time, but but by, you know, listening to our team and, you know, by me doing some reflection and some work, we were able to get through it, which sets the stage for, you know, this year. Obviously, covid hitting at the end of February, early March was very hard for us. We're in in person school. We had always been an in person school and so and we actually had, you know, we had opinion, opinions about online learning. We didn't like it, we thought it wasn't as good, and so very quickly in March we realized, okay,...

...so we're now going to be either out of business or we're going to be an online school, and so it was amazing to see the whole company come together and, you know, help us transition to online and and you know, there was a time, just because of the uncertainty, that I didn't know like how much are we going to shrink? You know, what is our budget going to be this year? And that was a really hard time. I did end up like crying in front of my whole team at like a town hall meeting, just being like, I don't know what's going to happen and, you know, was feeling really overwhelmed and upset about that fact. But in the end, I mean, my team is so amazing and we ended up getting through it and we're an online school now. So we offer online courses which are truly incredible. Turns out that what we do translates. It's not about the medium for us. It's like what we do is is just good, whether it's in person or online. So we've been really, really happy to see and you know, people are still getting jobs all through the pandemic as developers, and so it's been really exciting. That's so great to hear that the through the vulnerability that you had as a leader and vulnerability as an organization, to take a hard look in the mirror about, you know, what are we, what do we do and how do we do it, that you're coming through it having learned a whole bunch of things. If you don't mind, I want to go back to that and ask you as a leader, and you say that you you had a therapist, which is amazing. We've heard that from some other leaders, the importance of that and having the ability to talk through certain things. How do you maintain that now, with the stresses of your business evolving, with being so busy evolving the business and getting new clients? How do you maintain that presence or the the is it carving out time every day to do it? What are some of the things you do as a leader to keep that vulnerability and make sure that you are still on track as a leader? A few things come to mind. One is that, like I am super honest and direct, sometimes to a fault, so it's something that I have to keep in mind as well. But you know, I just I just like to tell people...

...the truth and I like to tell people what's going on and I don't like to hide anything, and so my team knows that if they ask me a question like they're going to get a direct answer. So maybe be careful what you ask some of the time, you know. But I think that helps people feel trust because they you know, they know that, you know, I really don't have an interest in hiding anything. We're very transparent about our financials. We share our results quarterly, we share profit targets and all that kind of stuff with the whole company. So so that that really helps people to trust me, I think, because they know that I'm sharing that information. And then we have a policy, I guess you'd call it. Basically Everyone Juno has a oneonone with everyone who reports to them once a week, and this is just like important. You know, it might be a little much. Some people would think once a week is a little bit too much, but you know, every single week I spend an hour with every single person who reports to me, which is, you know, six or seven different people, and I just get to hear what's going on with everyone. And for me, like you know, synapses are always firing in the back of my head as I'm like hearing different problems and different teams and figuring out, like what the root cause might be and how another team could consolve it or could work with them on it, and so that's really important. I think I wouldn't have the same understanding of how the business is doing if I wasn't like putting the time and energy into those meetings. I will say that, like having time is a challenge. You know, Juno is a is a self funded company. We did go through why combinator last summer and we did raise a small amount of money, but for the most part, you know, we've been here eight and a half years, just like profitable on our own, just doing our thing, and you know, that means that, you know, we don't have a bunch of venture capital pouring in allowing us to hire, you know, more roles than we can afford. Like we we get to hire who we can afford to have, based on our revenues and based on our profit targets, and so the team is, you...

...know, overall, you know, a bit stretched. That's sort of like how what the culture is like that, you know, it's like, you people have a lot on their plates, and so that's how it is for me as well. But I always look toward the future and I'm like, how is this going to change in the future? And I know that it is and I see the the light, and so I can sort of tell that to everyone and talk to everyone about that and and make sure that people see that. You know, how it is today isn't necessarily how it's always going to be. Yeah, and you just spoke of a role that you're looking forward so that you can be the visionary. Well, that's going to give you more time. So you've got those steps in place. Now here's the tricky question, but I always love hearing this. What would you do differently, looking back at the last you know, half of half of year to a year. You've talked about things that you would definitely do again. Who would you do differently? HMM, I mean, I have something I do differently that goes back a little farther than that. Sure, yeah, so, I think because I was, you know, when I graduated, I was like okay, I'm going to do this on my own and really started becoming, you know, became an entrepreneur and had to figure everything out on my own. I really regret not staying in closer touch with my like ivy classmates. It just was like felt like we were in different worlds at the time. You know, people were like, you know, having their great banking jobs and like living this like banking and consulting life and traveling everywhere, and I was just sort of toiling away on my own thing over here, like, you know, had no money to go out or go out for dinner or anything like that. And and I regret that now because for two reasons. One is that I think we just all have more in common today than we did back then. You know, everyone is a leader, you know, today, and everyone is running teams and everyone's thinking about the future of of work and all these kinds of things, and I think it would have been nice to you know, I'm sure I could reach out again, of course, and build those connections again, which I, you know, do do and I but I wish I'd maintained it a little bit more through rather than having to do all this work today to like get in touch...

...with everybody again. And the second reason is like I just I have stuff to sell these people, and you know, these, you know, my amazing colleagues are like working at, you know, banks and working at you know, different big companies and you know, I'd love to train their staff. So that'd be always easier to do if I, you know, had stayed in touch the whole time. So I wish I'd been a little bit more like future oriented back then, just to see that, you know, it's really about your whole career and your whole life in front of you and not just be so like focused on the in the moment. So let's a pivot a little bit. We've talked a little bit about the business. We've talked about you as a leader and as things grow and evolve, as do people's passions, and you've mentioned, you know, the not for profit that you work with. I love, always love, hearing what you'd like to leave the audience with, either a cause or a problem or an initiative that you'd like them to look up and get involved with. Talk a little bit about that. What would you love to task our audience with? I mean, if you're asking me to talk about something I'm very passionate about outside of work, I would choose sleep. I am so passionate about sleep. Anytime someone has a problem, I'm like that annoying person who is like, well, howd just sleep last night, you know, and sleep can be a big challenge for a lot of people. I've really prioritized it over the last few years. Obviously harder when my kids were, you know, really young, but as they've gotten a bit older it's gotten easier. And I use a bracelet called a whoop bracelet and it basically, I'm tracks, you're a few different things, but one of the things is that it tracks your sleep score every night. So it tells you, you know, it calculates a sleep need for you and then tells you how you did in terms of achieving that goal, and I find that really like a really tangible thing that I can use to, you know, have a goal for myself of making sure that I'm getting enough sleep. And, you know, inevitably, any day like I mean, I have so much energy at work, the day flies by like I love what I do so much. Any day where I have a kind of Pang of like not being into it or something, I look...

...at my sleep score I'm like, Oh, that's why, like I just didn't I just in sleep while. So that bracelet combined with I have this sat manta sleep mask. It's a brand called Manta and it's like raised sleep mask that makes it like fully black out. I cannot sleep without it. I'm completely addicted to it. And so between those two things, like I just wish more people would take more of an interest in their sleep and their sleep patterns and, you know, feel like it is something that you're in control of and that you can influence. And you know it can be hard, but there's a lot of sleep happets that we can undertake that can make it easier, like leaving your phone, you know, outside of the bedroom, or not using your phone after a certain hour. I gave up caflee caffeine completely, just specifically to help my sleep. So I've been at caffeine in almost two years. So anyway, that's that's my thing that I wish more people would would care about, especially students. You know, the mental health crisis on campuses, I believe, is driven by lack of sleep. And so, you know, if we can help teenagers and people in their twenties understand that they need to prioritize sleep, they need to build good habits in this area, I think we're going to have a happier and healthier society. And you know, we're hearing stories all the time what's happening during the pandemic with sleep. There's a great book called WHY WE SLEEP BY PhD Matthew Walk that it's so great, like a great tips and it's just all the little things that we can do to help us. So I encourage the listeners to check that out. How did how did you come across this? Was this something in in working with your therapist that you came across it? Was it a personal interest that just kind of grew out to something else? How Did you stumble upon this? Yeah, good question. I hadn't thought of this before, but it's extremely typical of me, which is I will have a some kind of Eureka moment and then I will become the most intense person about that time ever in the world. So for me, what it was is march of twenty, nineteen, I guess I had there was something really stressful going on in my in my personal life, and I had two horrible sleeps in a row, like even worse than when my kids were babies, like truly the two worst sights, and I was like, okay, I'm giving up caffeine and I'm learning everything that I can about sleep and I'm never...

...looking back and so that was sort of the point where everything changed for me and I just started, you know, I got that book, read that book, kept reading books, books, books, books, tools, you know, and and now I'm not annoying person. You just always talks about sleep. So just following it, going down the rabbit hole. Yeah, exactly. It's great. Before we wrap up, I want to give the listeners an opportunity to connect with you, to follow thing on Linkedin, instagram, connect with your organization and the not for profit. Where can people go to get in touch with you or learn more about you and your organization? Yeah, so the best place would be the Juno website. So it's Juno College chcom. That's Juno Collegecom and we also have instagram. Every Tuesday we feature a graduate of ours in our instagram stories and you can sort of follow along their journey and they answer questions and you can kind of learn about the people that come to Juno. So I definitely recommend checking that out. We're also pretty active on twitter and then for myself personally, I'm at heather pain on twitter and also on instagram as add heather pains. You can go on twitter to see more sort of work related things, and then on instagram it's like some pictures of my kids S, features of the Juno Office, which just got renovated like a half billion dollars right before covid so when we come back on campus here, it's going to be just gleaming and ready for everyone. And, yeah, some nature photos and stuff on there too. That's great, Heather. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today and, moreover, sharing insights for you personally as a leader, some of the challenges and the things that you found that have helped you out in your journey. Thank you so much for continuing to be a part of Ivy. Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks again to Heather for joining us on the leaders by IV podcast. It's always great to hear the things that worked, the things that were challenges in the life of an entrepreneur. Be Sure to rate, review and subscribe. See you next time.

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